Second Bonzai Book Club Discussion Group: Counterclockwise, Chapters 6-10

October 27th, 2011 - filed under: Furthermore » Bonzai Book Club



Counterclockwise is, easily and and hands down, one of the best books I’ve read in a long time. Did you finish it?? SO GOOD RIGHT?!

And just like last time, there are a million ideas and phrases and studies that I want to pull out . . . so much juicy brain food in here! But I’ll do my best to narrow it down.

So let’s talk!


1. Chapter 6 was by far my favorite, as I am absolutely fascinated with the concept of placebos and their undeniable efficacy in so many situations. If a remedy is successful, does it even matter whether it “should” work or not (like homeopathy, for example?) Is believing in something enough? What if you believe in placebos, but not in the specific treatment itself – could it work then? (like me and homeopathy) How much of Western medicine is actually placebo???

I’m curious, what do you think of placebos? Insulting to medical science, or important to whole-body healing?

2. I found Langer’s work on “priming” to be especially relevant as well. One study that really struck me focused on Asian women: half the group was primed for gender, while the other half was primed for race (they were all *Asian women*). They were both given the same math test, and those who had been primed for race significantly outperformed those who were primed for gender. (Presumably, because “Asians are good at math” and “women are bad at math”.)

This, of course, got me thinking about my own life. How are we each “primed” by the world around us, every day? How does our own internal voice “prime” our experience? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.

3. The hotel maid study. WOW. Maids were asked how often they exercise, and were given a number of tests to measure their health. The vast majority reported that they never/rarely exercise, and for the most part their bodies reflected this. Then, half of the group was given a demonstration that taught them how the work they do all day, every day, is actually exercise! Vacuuming burns this many calories, making a bed uses these muscles, etc. A month later the researchers returned and measured both groups. Of course, the ones who had been educated regarding exercise, had totally lost weight, although nothing else about their lifestyle had changed. Amazing.

A few weeks back I told Damian about this study. Then, two nights ago he was getting undressed for bed, and I was like “Damn babe! You look GOOD!” He told me that every day on his bike commute, he has been practicing mindfulness, and thinking abou the ride as exercise instead of transportation. He’s especially been holding the thought of how biking works his upper body.

Swear to god, he is getting CUT! So what do you think of that?

4. Langer talks about the idea that in any given situation, the outlier is not an anomaly – it is the main event! Outliers indicate possibility. For example, if one chimp can learn to talk, then it follows that –> chimps can learn to talk. If just one person can recover from this “incurable” disease, then it follows that –> the disease is actually curable.

As well, we simply cannot be sure that anything is impossible. For example, we don’t know that humans can’t fly; we only know that no human has flown . . . yet. What a radical, beautiful way of seeing the world! Or is it? Do you think that there is a practical application here?

5. Labels. Another WOW. Why is it that we “cure” a cold, but that our cancer is “in remission”. Right?! I was blown away by the study that tracked breast cancer survivors. The women who described their cancer as being “in remission” were significantly more likely to have it return, as opposed to women who had described themselves as “cured”. Again – WOW.

What are some of the labels that you consciously or subconsciously place on yourself and your health? How do you think they’re affecting you?


There’s so much more, but we’ll start there. Feel free to add anything else that caught your interest!

See you in the comments!

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    1. Chapter 6 was by far my favorite, as I am absolutely fascinated with the concept of placebos and their undeniable efficacy in so many situations. If a remedy is successful, does it even matter whether it “should” work or not (like homeopathy, for example?) Is believing in something enough? What if you believe in placebos, but not in the specific treatment itself – could it work then? (like me and homeopathy) How much of Western medicine is actually placebo???

    I’m curious, what do you think of placebos? Insulting to medical science, or important to whole-body healing?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    2. I found Langer’s work on “priming” to be especially relevant as well. One study that really struck me focused on Asian women: half the group was primed for gender, while the other half was primed for race (they were all *Asian women*). They were both given the same math test, and those who had been primed for race significantly outperformed those who were primed for gender. (Presumably, because “Asians are good at math” and “women are bad at math”.)

    This, of course, got me thinking about my own life. How are we each “primed” by the world around us, every day? How does our own internal voice “prime” our experience? I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    3. The hotel maid study. WOW. Maids were asked how often they exercise, and were given a number of tests to measure their health. The vast majority reported that they never/rarely exercise, and for the most part their bodies reflected this. Then, half of the group was given a demonstration that taught them how the work they do all day, every day, is actually exercise! Vacuuming burns this many calories, making a bed uses these muscles, etc. A month later the researchers returned and measured both groups. Of course, the ones who had been educated regarding exercise, had totally lost weight, although nothing else about their lifestyle had changed. Amazing.

    A few weeks back I told Damian about this study. Then, two nights ago he was getting undressed for bed, and I was like “Damn babe! You look GOOD!” He told me that every day on his bike commute, he has been practicing mindfulness, and thinking abou the ride as exercise instead of transportation. He’s especially been holding the thought of how biking works his upper body.

    Swear to god, he is getting CUT! So what do you think of that?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    4. Langer talks about the idea that in any given situation, the outlier is not an anomaly – it is the main event! Outliers indicate possibility. For example, if one chimp can learn to talk, then it follows that –> chimps can learn to talk. If just one person can recover from this “incurable” disease, then it follows that –> the disease is actually curable.

    As well, we simply cannot be sure that anything is impossible. For example, we don’t know that humans can’t fly; we only know that no human has flown . . . yet. What a radical, beautiful way of seeing the world! Or is it? Do you think that there is a practical application here?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    5. Labels. Another WOW. Why is it that we “cure” a cold, but that our cancer is “in remission”. Right?! I was blown away by the study that tracked breast cancer survivors. The women who described their cancer as being “in remission” were significantly more likely to have it return, as opposed to women who had described themselves as “cured”. Again – WOW.

    What are some of the labels that you consciously or subconsciously place on yourself and your health? How do you think they’re affecting you?

  • Heather

    “How much of Western medicine is actually placebo???”

    All of it, technically. But to be approved, drugs need to outperform the placebo— so the effectiveness of Western medicine is from both improvement due to placebo + improvement due to drug action.

  • Annie

    I didn’t read the book, as my broke butt is saving for a better car and Amazon doesn’t ship to merry old land of Aus, and I kinda hate e-books. But now I really want to read it! I really like the points brought up and even if you don’t have a strong opinion on mindfulness, it’s very thought provoking.
    I feel strongly particularly about the placebo thing. Especially in a first world where buzz words like ‘natural’ and such are so trendy, so marketed, yet often so meaningless. I think it’s funny how (generalising here) unhealthy the *seemingly* health conscious can be – purely because of what the new thing is in healthy diets/lifestlyes. I think that fads and trends in that way, are placebos. I think the placebo effect also works both ways; a friend of mine participated in a paid clinical trial (localised pain medication) and one of the guys in the trial got a bad rash and due to duty of care had to be removed from the trial and monitored – and he was on the placebo.

    Clearly, placebos do not work *all* of the time, and this is because some things need treatment, but also I think it’s because of apprehension in some cases. Placebos are really interesting, not just as a control in medicine, but also into the concept of psychology in health and how large a role it plays. I mean, if you get a rash or an ulcer or hypertension or whatever else from stress, then why wouldn’t positive mindsets contribute to good health?

    **Totally unrelated note: I have taken up knitting dishcloths/’sponges’. They are totally reusable, super absorbent and also textured enough to scrub. Ya’ll should give it a go – it’s a good skill and you can use synthetic, cotton or other vegan yarn.

  • http://twitter.com/Rebecca_Hawkes Rebecca Hawkes

    This sounds like such an interesting book! It is so amazing to think that our perspective and outlook can change the way our bodies work. There is an upcoming series that starts on Tuesday (8pm) on Channel 4 (UK) that deals with how food affects our bodies and can be eaten to tackle disease and illness. Can’t wait to watch and I’m sure yourself and readers would find it fascinating too. It will probably become available somewhere on the internet for all you non- British! X

  • http://brokencookiesdontcount.wordpress.com/ Fran@BCDC

    Sounds fascinating! I’ll have to see if my local library has it.

  • http://vegmomof4.blogspot.com/ April

    Sadly, I did not read this book yet. (I had just finished <>, and am now reading <>.) I love reading all of these discussion comments. This book is definitely going on my book queue. Does anyone have a copy they are finished reading and are willing to lend me? In return, I can lend our my copy of Fed Up With Lunch. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1452102287/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=fuwl-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=1452102287

  • http://vegmomof4.blogspot.com/ April

    I tried my local library too, but they weren’t carrying it. Hope you have more luck.

  • http://vegmomof4.blogspot.com/ April

    I had an interesting conversation with my 10 year old the other day. He has this crazy notion that girls never get hurt, and that girls are better than boys. He is growing up in a generation/community where women are more valued (at least compared to a few generations ago). Not to mention he has a rock-star for a momma who set a powerful example of what women are capable of (not to toot my own horn: former single mom, full time college student, deans list, college math tutor, involved parent, etc). All the while, I meant to show my sons how empowering honest hard work can be. Was I instead emasculating them? (More on how our culture is doing just that http://www.npr.org/2011/09/12/140404987/washed-up-men-the-stars-of-fall-sitcom-lineup)
    I am now more mindful on how my sons perceive gender labels.

  • spionin

    i’m not sure this is right. the placebo effect does occur in many instances, but i don’t think all of western medicine is “simulated medical intervention”. i mean, a lot of us would like to relieve headache by drinking a glass of water, but really, adding an ibuprofen to that glass of water tends to do the trick more often than not. because water probably helps by itself, the total effect is difference between effect of ibuprofen and effect of water alone. if water alone is zero or near zero, that makes effect of ibuprofen significant (not a placebo).

    in order to become approved, the drugs are tested in a variety of ways, over a number of years, and with many many replicates. currently, most approvals also include extensive characterization of patient groups’ genotypes and proteomic profiles, in order to characterize which genetic characteristics may predispose patients to sensitivity, insensitivity, or adverse reaction to the drug.

    initial steps include assaying tissue culture. i don’t think (though of course i might be wrong) cancer cells practice mindfullness. whether the effect seen on cells then translates to tissue or to entire organism is a completely different question.

    if cancer cell(dimethyl sulfoxide), then cancer cell
    if cancer cell(camptothecin (dissolved in DMSO)), then dead cancer cell

    efficacy of drug = physiological effect (survival, division potential, expression of apoptotic markets, etc) due to drug – physiological effect due to placebo (solvent, carrier, etc).

  • http://windycityvegan.wordpress.com Monika {windycityvegan}

    *STILL* waiting for this book to come in through the university library system. Maybe by the time I can read it I’ll be back online regularly and can jump in!

    Also, it’s killing me to not read the questions! But so far I’ve managed not to.