The Bonzai Book Club Discussion Group: “Just Food”, Chapters 4-6 & Conclusion

September 1st, 2011 - filed under: Furthermore » Bonzai Book Club

Hello my dears! So, have you finished the book? Ready to get your discussion on? Me too! Picking up right where we left off, let’s jump into some more questions. As always, feel free to use these prompts as starting points, or add your own entirely unique ideas and/or questions at the end. See you in the comments!

1) I’m fairly familiar with the environmental damage done by meat production, but McWilliams did present a few issus in a way that I hadn’t previously considered. Namely, 1) the energetic input required for preparing meat (as opposed to veggies, which are more often only lightly cooked or eaten raw), and 2) the humans (children) impacted by living in close proximity to slaughterhouses (I found this section terribly troubling). Were there any particular parts of this chapter that gave you something new to think about?

2) McWilliams makes a solid case against consuming meat – at least I think he does, but obviously I’m biased. If you eat meat, were you swayed by his report? Do you think the fact that McWilliams is a vegan (he was a vegetarian at the time he wrote Just Food, and only went veg after doing the research for the book) detracts from his credibility on this topic? Or does the fact that he was compelled to go veg actually reinforce his message?

3) It’s interesting to hear McWilliams lay out his case for aquaculture, knowing that he now advocates for a completely plant-based diet. What do you imagine changed?

4) McWilliams writes: “Perverse subsidies are antithetical not only to the responsible production of food but also to the basic principles of market economy, and so are crying out to become not a cause for a nap but a cause du jour.” I think we can all agree on this point, but the question still remains – how? How does one, or one small group, exert enough force to dismantle so much bureaucratic entanglement, as in the case of farm subsidies?

5) According to McWilliams, we live in a global community and should embrace international trade (under “fair trade” standards) in order to maximize efficiency in growing food where food grows best. Do you agree, or do you still hold that eating local is superior? Why or why not?

6) Honestly, the first 5 chapters of Just Food left me overwhelmed and anxious, with no sense of hopeful direction. Thank goodness McWilliams recognizes this, and uses chapter 6, as well as the conclusion, to directly address the many issues that arise when trying to “feed the world – sustainably”. He revisits food miles, organic versus conventional, GM crops, meat consumption, and aquaculture. Did you find his discussion reassuring? Do you think McWilliams went far enough in offering real solutions?

7) Overall, what is your impression of this book. Was it what you had expected? Has it changed the way you think about food? Will it change any of your behaviors around food? What is your “take-away”?

I can’t wait to hear your thoughts. Like last time, I’ll hold off on sharing my own answers until a couple of days have passed. Okay, now have at it!

http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

1) I’m fairly familiar with the environmental damage done by meat production, but McWilliams did present a few issus in a way that I hadn’t previously considered. Namely, 1) the energetic input required for preparing meat (as opposed to veggies, which are more often only lightly cooked or eaten raw), and 2) the humans (children) impacted by living in close proximity to slaughterhouses (I found this section terribly troubling). Were there any particular parts of this chapter that gave you something new to think about?
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

2) McWilliams makes a solid case against consuming meat – at least I think he does, but obviously I’m biased. If you eat meat, were you swayed by his report? Do you think the fact that McWilliams is a vegan (he was a vegetarian at the time he wrote Just Food, and only went veg after doing the research for the book) detracts from his credibility on this topic? Or does the fact that he was compelled to go veg actually reinforce his message?
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

3) It’s interesting to hear McWilliams lay out his case for aquaculture, knowing that he now advocates for a completely plant-based diet. What do you imagine changed?
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

4) McWilliams writes: “Perverse subsidies are antithetical not only to the responsible production of food but also to the basic principles of market economy, and so are crying out to become not a cause for a nap but a cause du jour.” I think we can all agree on this point, but the question still remains – how? How does one, or one small group, exert enough force to dismantle so much bureaucratic entanglement, as in the case of farm subsidies?
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

5) According to McWilliams, we live in a global community and should embrace international trade (under “fair trade” standards) in order to maximize efficiency in growing food where food grows best. Do you agree, or do you still hold that eating local is superior? Why or why not?
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

6) Honestly, the first 5 chapters of Just Food left me overwhelmed and anxious, with no sense of hopeful direction. Thank goodness McWilliams recognizes this, and uses chapter 6, as well as the conclusion, to directly address the many issues that arise when trying to “feed the world – sustainably”. He revisits food miles, organic versus conventional, GM crops, meat consumption, and aquaculture. Did you find his discussion reassuring? Do you think McWilliams went far enough in offering real solutions?
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

7) Overall, what is your impression of this book. Was it what you had expected? Has it changed the way you think about food? Will it change any of your behaviors around food? What is your “take-away”?
http://windycityvegan.wordpress.com Monika {windycityvegan}

Bugger! I can’t jump in until tomorrow. Not sure why I felt the need to tell you this – but these are great questions and I’ll be pondering them tonight after N’s playschool orientation!
http://windycityvegan.wordpress.com Monika {windycityvegan}

Bugger! I can’t jump in until tomorrow. Not sure why I felt the need to tell you this – but these are great questions and I’ll be pondering them tonight after N’s playschool orientation!
http://windycityvegan.wordpress.com Monika {windycityvegan}

My answers are going to be brief, but I wanted to jump in before I unplug for the extended weekend.

This book was about 90% of what I expected. For some reason, though, I never thought about aquaculture that much – probably because even when I was omni, I very rarely ate anything that came out of the water.

The book did not change the way I think about food at all – but that’s mostly because I live in the middle of a local, sustainable/organic farm community and one half of my family were farmers when I was growing up.

My take-away was to think outside the box when it comes to food miles vs. everything else!
http://windycityvegan.wordpress.com Monika {windycityvegan}

I think he went about as far as he could without turning this into a preachy, This is What You Should Do kind of book. I never found the book overwhelming, anxious, depressing or devoid of any hope – but again, I grew up surrounded by this stuff and although I don’t agree with it (obvs, since I went vegan at 15), it was a reality where I lived.

I personally did not find anything about meat consumption or aquaculture reassuring – just sort of neutral, I guess. (I’ll elaborate later when I have more time…)
Bliss Doubt

First, I read the book, and heard an NPR interview with the author quite some time ago.

On question #5: I still hold that supporting local culture is important. It creates diversity, and diversity is better able to withstand catastrophe than consolidation.

The example of “helping the Kenyan farmer” by buying his green beans is ridiculous to me. The growing of food for export to foreign tables is a form of colonialism, and in many instances even a form of slavery. Growing food for foreign tables is at the heart of why there is starvation today in India, which exports food. The Kenyan farmer would do better to grow sustainable crops that work in his climate and soil, and that can be sold in his region of the world.

Any decisions about how to feed the world are moot. The world has six billion now, and grows enough food for nine billion, yet people go to bed hungry while doors close on supermarkets full of unsold food. If we can’t feed the world now, we never will. Hunger in the world is a matter of politics, or more precisely, economics.
Kate

Well, I’m sort of a cheater…I went to college for sustainability and knew about most of these atrocities. I also read a pro-vegan book called Gristle (co-authored by Moby) which makes a point to say that 1 300,000 head pig farm produces the same amount of waste as the entire city of Philadelphia.

I can’t call myself a full fledged vegetarian, but I eat WAY less meat (1/4 lb/month or less from humane & sustainable sources) because of this hanus treatment of our environment.
Kate

Yup. I refuse to eat meat that comes from a place that damages our environment so severely.

I think that it adds to credibility that he went vegan. Not only does he talk the talk, he walks the walk. Props!
Kate

Well, we still need fertilizer for plants to reach maximum yield. I believe polyaquaculture is a model for sustainable farming – if you didn’t have the fish, you would need an artificial input for fertilizer. This system is nearly closed loop, which is incredible!! If you use rain water to fill the water in these tanks, you’re not exhausting aquifers either, whoop whoop!

**Currently, most of our fertilizer comes from Bat Guano farms…which took thousands of years to build up and of course are being exhausted faster than bats shit. OR, from chicken shit. Chicken shit is one of the most nutrient rich ‘shits’ for fertilizer (full of P)…but they create a lot of environmental damage. PLUS, I did similar comprehensive research on chickens and their housing, and when it comes to mass production, regular-old battery caged hens are healthier, happier and cleaner than their ‘free range’ counter parts. (keep in mind, ‘free range’ is not regulated, and often just means 30,000 hens on the floor of a barn, running around in their own poop, trampling each other, wasting food and losing eggs in the terrible housing conditions). My point here is, if we need to produce fertilizer in a small space, fish seem to be the most humane way to do it, if it’s coming from animals.
Kate

THIS IS MY FAVORITE QUESTION.

Vote vote vote vote vote with your dollar. That’s part of it. Just like he says. Stop eating meat. Stop eating products dependent on corn. Inquire if your farmer at your farmer’s market is a subsidy recipient, and how they would propose we help make change.

Quite frankly, there are a lot of problems right now that don’t see an easy solution – this subsidy thing is just as much a part of our giant debt problem as anything else is (IMHO). I think it’s going to take something BIG to disentangle this. I just don’t know what.
Kate

I’m with McWilliams here. He’s right that if you drive to the market, you’ve just increased the per-item food mileage (and therefore, emissions) to a point where the locality doesn’t matter. Most of the attendees to my farmer’s market drive. Phoenix simply isn’t laid out so that it’s walkable. Neither is San Diego. And, why grow a water-dependent crop like watermelons in Phoenix?? I’d rather buy the local, native squash that doesn’t need a lot of water to grow.

The answer to feeding the world in the future is efficiency. It’s what ‘saved’ us in the green revolution in the 50s and it’s what we need now to ensure food for all 7 to 10 billion of us in the future. And, to be fair, everything else needs to be more efficient as well – denser cities & housing would be a huge help to emissions, as well as telecommuting options.
Kate

I’m with Monika – I have been around these issues, and have been angry/depressed/enraged/neutral/hopeful about them previously.

Aquaculture is an incredibly real solution to our problems. IMHO, you can implement this in any city.

Going Vegan is a tough solution, and I’m unsure if this is the answer. However, the world will not be vegan as long as there is the option to eat animal products.

Reassuring wouldn’t be the right word – haha, nothing reassures me in this other than finding a community that is concerned and working to implement solutions. Monsanto is often hated for their work, however, you can look at them and at least respect their efforts to provide solutions to our food problems – controversial as they may be. (however, I would say that the food system, full of subsidies, is more evil than Monsanto – without it, Monsanto wouldn’t exist). So, does Monsanto reassure me? No. I would say the same for McWilliams :)
Kate

I have to say, I was a proud locavore until this book. McWillaims disillusioned me and I have to say, I do not hold local food in the high regard I once did. Food in my own backyard is far superior to food from the farmer’s market, in my eyes. I also am a huge proponent of efficiency more than I am of organic or local (ps, have you ever looked at the list of ‘allowed’ chemicals on organic food!?! It’s huge!!). I had already stopped eating most meat, however, this did change my attitude towards farmed fish.

Biggest takeaway – how do I communicate the severity of this issue to others, while not ‘un-doing’ any good the locavore community has done for bringing attention to the question “Where does our food come from?”
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

I’d only thought about aquaculture because Damian had a coworker who was *really* into it. He had a set-up in his backyard and was growing CRAZY huge lettuce CRAZY fast. I’m definitely curious about the potential . . . but of course there’s the vegan issue. I am fine with my chickens because they are rescues, but . . . rescue fish? Not likely.
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

I think that’s an excellent take-away, and I struggle with the same question. Actually, in a bigger context I struggle with those issues in general a lot when I’m writing BA. Namely, how to educate people about how “bad” it is, while still inspiring action and hope (and not “fuck-it-all” desperation)

It’s tough.
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

I agree that growing food is not so much a problem as *getting food to people*, but I think thats a lot of what McWilliams is talking about. Why not grow food where food grows best, and then move it around to the people who need it? Local only works in regions where diverse and nutritious foods grow year-round (ie, the equatorial regions, where we evolved from!). But for the rest of the world (the most of us), “local” is not a sufficient answer.

I agree though, that it’s ALL political.
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

Really? You didn’t find it depressing? I still feel like I have no solid idea of how we might go about feeding the world sustainably, and what role I can play in that process to make a real and lasting change.
http://windycityvegan.wordpress.com Monika {windycityvegan}

I’m right with you on the rescue side of things. Our hens were rescues, and until they just started laying eggs out of the blue one day we didn’t even really think about whether or not someone would consume the eggs (Mar and Nina do sometimes now) or what to do with all that poo! Which we compost like crazy. But fish…I would bet that there are a lot of koi fish that need new homes – they reproduce *so* quickly and are such a disposable novelty. I have a relative who has a koi pond and he gives dozens of them away every year. Actually, Nina and I saw something on tv about a turtle and koi sanctuary this weekend, now that I think about it.

Okay – but then how would I care for all of the additional offspring that my initial rescue fish would spawn…?
http://windycityvegan.wordpress.com Monika {windycityvegan}

I am a disgustingly in-your-face glass is always half full kind of person. But seriously – I have more to add on this – but I’m late for my bus! I will have to give you concrete examples tomorrow.

Off to infect my fellow public transit riders with joie de vivre!
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

Also, is it the best use of energy to invest time and resources into a “solution” that still involves – and is in fact dependent on – animal use (exploitation?) Shouldn’t we be looking elsewhere, away from using animals?

I’m very curious to know what McWilliams says about aquaponics now, as an outspoken vegan?
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

Haha, I can’t wait!
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

So interesting hearing your thoughts on this, juxtaposed against “Bliss Doubt” down below. I want to hear the two of you have a conversation about it!
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

BECAUSE IT’S THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION! =D

It’s the crux of the issue. Pro-cott is awesome for sure. Education is key. But how do we get INSIDE to make the important ($$$) changes?
http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

What about humanure? We have the technology, it solves a HUGE waste storage problem, and isn’t it the only *real* humane way? After all, fish have feelings too!
Bliss Doubt

Everywhere, there is something that grows, with the possible exception of the frozen tundra, and even there, I’m not sure. There are lots of food products that come from desert regions, and there are grains, root vegetables and other foods that grow in poor soil. I’m not opposed to trading out surplus, but I don’t think there are populous regions full of people with their mouths open like baby birds, waiting to be fed. Nature abhors a vacuum. McWilliams is cheerleading for the status quo, when the world today is bursting with ideas for how to do things better, with more respect for the earth and our natural resources. I realize that my shopping cart can’t always be fully local, but I believe it can become more and more so. Even though I’ll pay more when the item is local, and even though I immediately grab under the “local flavors” signs at my grocery store, there are few local products in the conventional markets, and I’m in one of those hot, food growing regions. That’s because of the predatory pricing which comes from the deadly efficiencies of multinational agribusiness.
Bliss Doubt

Oooo! Missed this. Love the invitation but I think this session is over. Will wait for the next one.

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