Welcome To The Bonzai Book Club’s First Discussion Group! “Just Food”, Chapters 1-3

August 15th, 2011 - filed under: Furthermore » Bonzai Book Club



Hello hello! Are you all caught up on your reading? I did mine while I was away, and I have to say, it was certainly . . . interesting. So far this book is not what I expected! But I won’t get into all that just yet.

So, I’ve been wrassling with how to best host an effective and fun discussion, and what I’ve finally settled on is this: I’m going to ask a series of pointed questions relating to the Introduction and the first three chapters. However, I’ll reserve my own comments until later, because what I really want is for YOU to take the lead, and to share your thoughts without influence.

So, you can respond specifically to my questions, or you can simply offer your own impressions, or you can ask your own questions – all in the comment section below. Which leads me to . . .


Over the weekend we revamped the commenting section. I really adored the custom look that Damian had originally designed, but the framework didn’t allow for much flexibility. With the new system, you’re able to respond to someone directly, under their comment, which keeps things straightforward and streamlined. This also allows for multiple conversations to occur simultaneously on a single post, with no interference. I’m really excited about this feature and it was implemented specifically for the BBC discussions, so I hope you guys enjoy it!



Okay, so here are your questions. You can answer them directly, use them as a jumping off point, or ignore them completely. Whatever suits your fancy!


1) McWilliams is, himself, a former “locavore” activist, and at times he seems to speak straight from the heart. But he’s also an agricultural historian, and he brings a certain academic tone into his writing. How does his style strike you? Do you find this book to be an easy read, or is it more of a slog?

2) The first chapter addresses food miles and the issue of oversimplifying how to feed a global community in a sustainable manner. McWilliams argues that food miles are a small and insignificant piece of this large and complicated puzzle. Do you agree?

3) Life-cycle assessments (LCAs) seem to provide a far superior analysis, but do you think that using LCAs is a realistic expectation for the common consumer?

4) McWilliams is pretty hard on the organic movement and its actual ability to feed the planet. After reading his arguments, where do you fall? Have you changed your thoughts on eating organic?

5) Do you think McWilliams did a thorough job of covering the organic issue? If not, what issues or perspectives do you think were missing?

6) McWilliams is an advocate for genetically modified (GM) food. Is he crazy?

7) No but seriously, he seems to make a pretty strong case. But again, do you feel like it was a thorough examination of all the relevant considerations? Did it change your mind? Make you re-evaluate? Make you think?

8) The subtitle of the book promises to identify “Where Locavores Get It Wrong And How We Can Truly Eat Responsibly“. Thus far, do you think that McWilliams has succeeded in doing this?


Discuss in the comments below. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts!

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    1) McWilliams is, himself, a former “locavore” activist, and at times he seems to speak straight from the heart. But he’s also an agricultural historian, and he brings a certain academic tone into his writing. How does his style strike you? Do you find this book to be an easy read, or is it more of a slog?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    2) The first chapter addresses food miles and the issue of oversimplifying how to feed a global community in a sustainable manner. McWilliams argues that food miles are a small and insignificant piece of this large and complicated puzzle. Do you agree?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    3) Life-cycle assessments (LCAs) seem to provide a far superior analysis, but do you think that using LCAs is a realistic expectation for the common consumer?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    4) McWilliams is pretty hard on the organic movement and its actual ability to feed the planet. After reading his arguments, where do you fall? Have you changed your thoughts on eating organic?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    5) Do you think McWilliams did a thorough job of covering the organic issue? If not, what issues or perspectives do you think were missing?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    6) McWilliams is an advocate for genetically modified (GM) food. Is he crazy?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    7) No but seriously, he seems to make a pretty strong case. But again, do you feel like it was a thorough examination of all the relevant considerations? Did it change your mind? Make you re-evaluate? Make you think?

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    8) The subtitle of the book promises to identify “Where Locavores Get It Wrong And How We Can Truly Eat Responsibly“. Thus far, do you think that McWilliams has succeeded in doing this?

  • tara

    I like the tone of the book. He shares his own opinions and beliefs, but goes back to an objective view to share the facts and scientific research he’s gathered. I think it demonstrates how we have to find a healthy balance between our pasts and personal beliefs and the information now available to us through more recent research.

  • tara

    To be honest, I’m still in the middle of this chapter. However, I do have a bit of a background with GM crops. My family farms and I started working when I was 10, actually spraying chemicals on weeds in cotton fields. Growing up, I thought nothing of this; it was all I knew. Now, I am highly skeptical of the use of chemicals in farming and the possible side effects that we don’t even know about yet. I’ve also had my doubts about how “natural” it could possibly be to alter the DNA of plants and whether it would harm the consumer or the earth. McWilliams’ research is actually comforting me to a point about these things, reasoning that fewer chemicals are needed when the crops are altered with a natural occurring bacteria, but I am still wondering about how these things are going to play out in the long run, and no one can possibly know this yet because these chemicals and GM crops have only been around for a few generations.

  • http://www.vegansunshine.wordpress.com Whitney

    Sounds like a good book. Yay book clubs!

    Whitney

  • Kate

    I find this book to be an incredibly easy read. I would also say he has a slight tone of….arrogance?

  • Kate

    I honestly could not agree more. This is the same as the argument that ‘changing the lightbulbs [from incandescents to CFLs] is all we need to do to be ‘Green’. There is a MUCH bigger issue that *demands* that if we are to accurately evaluate our food, we examine the SYSTEM as a whole, and not compartmentalize the issues.

  • Kate

    LCAs DO provide a far superior analysis!! It is not the issue of using them, it’s communicating the concept in a simplified way to the consumer. There is no easy answer to that question. Perhaps instead, we base policies and labeling off of life cycle analysis (for example, Marine Stewarship Council (MSC) Certified Fish) rather than make the consumer ‘think’.

  • Kate

    As a sustainability student that took a class dedicated to sustainable farming, I agree with McWilliams overall big picture on organic farming. Other students in the masters program are finding similar studies that back up McWilliams. Plain and simple, organic farming does not have the yields of ‘conventional’ farming, and our population continues to grow, and our growing population continues to eat more meat (which I think he covers in later chapters :)

  • Kate

    I think McWilliams is unsympathetic to the emotional connection some people have with food. He stands strongly on a data-driven science platform, and disregards the emotional heritage that we have with food (that I think Pollan sort of alludes to much more in his writing). In general, sustainability is hard to look at through an emotional filter – in terms of the field of sustainability, there is hardly any congruence in the answer to the question “What are we sustaining?”

  • Kate

    I have a different opinion of GM food now that I’ve read this book. To me, the line that hit home was the one that said ‘we’ve been using GM food for over 30 years, and no one has died from a GM food source’. While GM food DOES make high sugar (corn) and bad-for-you foods (soy) available in high quantities at low cost – perhaps this is more the issues with our health than the food it’s coming from.

    Also, it begs the question of looking more at the system (stripping the topsoil of nutrients, poor nutrient allocation in the soil, demanding more and more and replenishing less and less).

    But, that being said, I still wouldn’t want to buy GM food.

  • Kate

    The one thing that I wish he had covered (in the entire book) is the cultural history with food. If families in Peru that ate quinoa as a source of all their nutrition for thousands of years, now sell it as a ‘cash crop’ but are now dependent on the cost of quinoa in the market to buy food for their family….is THAT ethical and Truly Eating Responsibly? He’s posed a tough standard to meet.

  • Amandoid

    1. I like his writing style. Easy to read, and interesting.
    2. He does make some good points about food miles, I am still thinking about it.
    3. Harder to calculate, but does seem more reasonable.
    4. I bought organic at the store today. He says he often does as well. It’s about being aware that it isn’t a realistic solution to feed the world.
    5. I spoke with some scientists from a local college this weekend about organic, and they shared some similar insights as McWilliams. A tough year will yield more in an organic farm, and a normal year will yield more in a conventional farm. I would like to continue learning more about organic farming. The part I found most interesting was the natural chemicals organic farmers use.
    6. At first, I thought he was, but he seemed to explain it well that made me think he wasn’t so crazy.
    7. It definitely made me think and reevaluate. It has sparked many discussions with friends.
    8. I think he has done a great job pointing out how locavores get it wrong, hoping that the second half tells more about what we can do to truly eat responsibly. Although, in the introduction, he said he does not have all the answers, and this book should be used to create discussion and promote questioning. I really like it so far! :]

  • tara

    I was wondering about that, too. Someone mentioned weeks ago here on a post about coconuts how increased demand for them in the U.S. might affect the people in the regions where they’re farmed. I don’t know enough about this stuff to venture any opinions, but I do think the source should be considered (with all food items), and whether it’s truly better for them to be exporting their most valuable goods.

  • tara

    I had no idea that BT crops were enhanced with a bacteria that organic farmers had already been using for years. That really seems to blur the line for me between conventional and organic with regard to pest control. It doesn’t seem like the fruit of the BT plant would be any different than the fruit of the organic plant. The organic plant would have the bacteria in it after its roots absorbed some of it, just like the BT has it implanted in its genes. And I’m not sure how much difference it makes, but I keep remembering that the majority of BT crops are used as livestock feed (at least all the ones grown in West Tennessee), so people are getting it secondhand, not directly.

  • tara

    I agree that it’s unrealistic to expect organic to feed the planet, but I think, and I think McWilliams thinks, it’s still awesome for those who can to grow their own organic produce, and to seek it out in your area where there’s a supply.

  • Kate

    I know Sayward promotes a vegan community, but many cultures in the world rely on fish as a main staple. Our (1st world countries) relentless harvest of ocean fish is depleting a food supply of an underprivileged people. However, ‘wild’ fish has been touted (lately) as being ‘more eco friendly’ than ‘farmed’ fish, which, as you’ll see later in the book, is only true in certain situations. On the whole, feeding the world is a tough issue…i think we’re on the same verge of change as the green revolution was in the 50s.

  • Kate

    I agree! I think his argument is largely driven by the movement of people to cities, where there is less space to farm and the data indicates that we will ‘abandon’ farming and likely, leave it to a mass producing machine (like so many other things)…

  • Jen

    yes, exactly! I found him very snotty at first, but have either gotten used to it, or started believing him more…

  • Jen

    In my stage of education on this topic I have to admit that I’ve been very narrowly focused on improving my own diet and the food that I provide for my family and friends. Before reading this book I had honestly never thought about how to sustainably feed everyone in the world. While I don’t think I’m ready to personally tackle that issue, I certainly don’t want to do anything that is directly harming the environment that we all share, or drastically reducing the availability of food for others. Organic is important to me because I am comforted by simplicity and honesty – really my ideal situation would involve growing and preserving the majority of my own food, but I’m not very far along on that continuum either. Despite McWilliams’ arguments I can’t shake the good vibes I feel from growing and buying organic food, plus talking with farmers about their processes. I am open to change, but so far in the book I haven’t come across another guiding philosophy that would take the place of my preference to eat organic and local when possible.

  • tara

    I understand the tone y’all are perceiving in the book, but I didn’t take it for arrogance. I think it’s hard not to sound competent and confident about subjects you’ve spent months or years studying and researching. Other than that, maybe him saying that he used to be a naive locavore made me feel like he’s just trying to educate others the same way he educated himself.

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    I really appreciate all of the research that McWilliams did on both sides of this issue, and I think it comes through clearly in this book. I have found it to be an engaging and easy read, and I don’t detect any arrogance in his tone or approach. (Then again, I work in academia, so everyone already sounds like that.) When I’m reading a book that I want to learn something from, an author who romanticizes or proselytizes at all is a BIG red flag. I don’t feel that McWilliams is doing either of those things.

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    Can I just say “ditto” to everything that Kate said? Because that was my reaction as well.

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    I think that communicating information gleaned from LCAs to the common consumer in layman’s terms or via labeling, etc is the key here. If a marketing team can convince someone to spend half of their salary on the latest gadgets or overpriced jeans, then they can convince the common consumer to care about LCAs.

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    My mother’s side of my family were all farmers, the last two generations being certified organic farmers. Just having enough produce to lock down a modest contract with the local co-op was difficult enough some years.

    Having a kitchen garden, or even a small subsistence farm, is nothing compared to farming acres and acres of land–at least not right now, with the model that small organic farms follow. As the surface area farmed and diversity of crops increase, the problems that can wipe out a farm grow exponentially.

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    I agree – I don’t think McWilliams is discouraging people from growing their own food or supporting local farmers. He’s just pointing out that the current models – both organic and agribusiness – are not able to feed our growing global population.

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    Yes!

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    Not at all – although he seemed more biased towards GM foods in this section of the book, not as objective.

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    While he did make a strong case, I don’t feel that he fully addressed the monocrop/agribusiness-monopoly side of the issue.

    I won’t buy GM seeds/crops/etc, but I also fully admit that I have the luxury to make that choice.

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    “perhaps this is more the issues with our health than the food it’s coming from” – YES.

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    I’m loving reading these comments, and it’s so hard not to interject! Maybe I’m being too hands off?

    Anyway, it’s really interesting hearing the different perceptions, and thinking about my own. I think I mis-read some stuff, and I also think I’m reading more into some stuff.

    Mostly, it’s just so so clear that these issues are COMPLEX, and there are no simple answers, and even McWilliams is forced to gloss over certain aspects. Feeding the entire world ain’t easy.

    I’m going to try to give it another day before I start jumping in. I love hearing from everyone – please keep it coming! =D

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    I agree! I do not know nearly enough about this, either — but I’ve witnessed raw/veg restaurants that went out of business because 1. they couldn’t get enough coconuts, and 2. when they *did*, their coconut-based dishes were so high-priced that people took their appetites and wallets elsewhere.

  • JenJenJen

    Does he talk about permaculture in the book?

  • Inga

    While I am not biologist or a chemist, I do have an above average background in those disciplines. As such, I never understood the paralyzing fear of GM crops. I do have problems with the ethics of Monsanto, however. So while having no beef with GM in theory, I refuse to support it in its current form.

  • Inga

    While I am not biologist or a chemist, I do have an above average background in those disciplines. As such, I never understood the paralyzing fear of GM crops. I do have problems with the ethics of Monsanto, however. So while having no beef with GM in theory, I refuse to support it in its current form.

  • Kate

    I’d have to agree here – but maybe it’s my resistance to believe the argument and how much solid data he presents?

  • Kate

    YES!

  • http://twitter.com/windycityvegan Monika Soria Caruso

    Oh Inga, you articulated what I wasn’t able to say yesterday. My thoughts exactly!

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    I got a similar impression. Maybe not arrogance exactly, but more like . . . condescension? Or maybe that’s sort of the same thing. Either way, I found some of his word/phrase choices rather condescending sounding (this may come from defensiveness though, as he had a LOT of attack from locavore-types after he wrote the original article that spawned the book)

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    I agree about academic writing and I appreciate the straightforward logic of his approach. I don’t want romanticism tangled up in my science! However, I disagree that he presents a thorough accounting of both sides of the issues. More on that below . . .

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    Word! =D

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    Kate and Monika, I understand what you’re saying but I feel like it’s not realistic. For example, WHO is doing the LCA analysis? Where do they get their money? Who do they work for? Are they business? Or government?

    Who is in charge of compiling, analyzing, and distributing that information to the general public? How will that information get to ME, jane consumer?

    When I go to Trader Joe’s to buy a gala apple, should I expect there to be a placard next to the apples, with the LCA stats for that *specific* crop from that *specific* farm in that *specific* season? And one next to the taters, and the kale, and on?

    Do you see what I mean? It’s not as simple as, say, the government regulating the use of the term organic, and then the consumer knowing “Okay, things labeled organic means x, y, and z, and so I can make my choices accordingly”, or even like using the Dirty Dozen list, where consumers can say “Okay, ALL strawberries should be bought organic, but it’s okay if I buy ALL my onions conventional”.

    Because LCAs apply to individual crops at individual farms, I’m just not seeing how ME, as the consumer, could possibly keep track of everything in order to make the enlightened food choice in each situation. Which means, to me, that LCAs may not actually have a practical application (right now, in this system)

    But maybe I’m totally missing something. Talk to me!

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    I agree, and that makes sense to a degree, but there’s a [possibly purely sentimental] part of me that has real trouble with the idea that “whats good enough for me is not good enough for you”. I don’t like privilege and I’m really uncomfortable with food privilege. Hmm . . .

  • http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/ Sayward Rebhal

    And THERE’S the rub, for me. I took from this chapter that conventional is not ideal (for health or environment), but that organic is not sustainable (for a growing population, though I have to wonder about if everyone went vegan). Okay, so both have problems – but is this truly a black versus white situation? Isn’t there a third (or fourth, or fifth, etc) option? What about innovation? What about cultural shifts in eating behaviors? What about Permaculture?! I feel like I really wanted more alternative *solutions* in this chapter. As it was I was just sort of depressed.