Comments on: Second Bonzai Book Club Discussion Group: Counterclockwise, Chapters 6-10

By: Monika {windycityvegan}

Monika {windycityvegan} — Sat, 29 Oct 2011 03:14:00 +0000

*STILL* waiting for this book to come in through the university library system. Maybe by the time I can read it I’ll be back online regularly and can jump in!

Also, it’s killing me to not read the questions! But so far I’ve managed not to.

By: spionin

spionin — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 20:42:00 +0000

i’m not sure this is right. the placebo effect does occur in many instances, but i don’t think all of western medicine is “simulated medical intervention”. i mean, a lot of us would like to relieve headache by drinking a glass of water, but really, adding an ibuprofen to that glass of water tends to do the trick more often than not. because water probably helps by itself, the total effect is difference between effect of ibuprofen and effect of water alone. if water alone is zero or near zero, that makes effect of ibuprofen significant (not a placebo).

in order to become approved, the drugs are tested in a variety of ways, over a number of years, and with many many replicates. currently, most approvals also include extensive characterization of patient groups’ genotypes and proteomic profiles, in order to characterize which genetic characteristics may predispose patients to sensitivity, insensitivity, or adverse reaction to the drug.

initial steps include assaying tissue culture. i don’t think (though of course i might be wrong) cancer cells practice mindfullness. whether the effect seen on cells then translates to tissue or to entire organism is a completely different question.

if cancer cell(dimethyl sulfoxide), then cancer cell
if cancer cell(camptothecin (dissolved in DMSO)), then dead cancer cell

efficacy of drug = physiological effect (survival, division potential, expression of apoptotic markets, etc) due to drug – physiological effect due to placebo (solvent, carrier, etc).

By: April

April — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:29:00 +0000

I had an interesting conversation with my 10 year old the other day. He has this crazy notion that girls never get hurt, and that girls are better than boys. He is growing up in a generation/community where women are more valued (at least compared to a few generations ago). Not to mention he has a rock-star for a momma who set a powerful example of what women are capable of (not to toot my own horn: former single mom, full time college student, deans list, college math tutor, involved parent, etc). All the while, I meant to show my sons how empowering honest hard work can be. Was I instead emasculating them? (More on how our culture is doing just that http://www.npr.org/2011/09/12/140404987/washed-up-men-the-stars-of-fall-sitcom-lineup)
I am now more mindful on how my sons perceive gender labels.

By: April

April — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:20:00 +0000

I tried my local library too, but they weren’t carrying it. Hope you have more luck.

By: April

April — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 16:19:00 +0000

Sadly, I did not read this book yet. (I had just finished <>, and am now reading <>.) I love reading all of these discussion comments. This book is definitely going on my book queue. Does anyone have a copy they are finished reading and are willing to lend me? In return, I can lend our my copy of Fed Up With Lunch. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1452102287/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=fuwl-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=1452102287

By: Fran@BCDC

Fran@BCDC — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:41:00 +0000

Sounds fascinating! I’ll have to see if my local library has it.

By: Rebecca Hawkes

Rebecca Hawkes — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:01:00 +0000

This sounds like such an interesting book! It is so amazing to think that our perspective and outlook can change the way our bodies work. There is an upcoming series that starts on Tuesday (8pm) on Channel 4 (UK) that deals with how food affects our bodies and can be eaten to tackle disease and illness. Can’t wait to watch and I’m sure yourself and readers would find it fascinating too. It will probably become available somewhere on the internet for all you non- British! X

By: Annie

Annie — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 05:32:00 +0000

I didn’t read the book, as my broke butt is saving for a better car and Amazon doesn’t ship to merry old land of Aus, and I kinda hate e-books. But now I really want to read it! I really like the points brought up and even if you don’t have a strong opinion on mindfulness, it’s very thought provoking.
I feel strongly particularly about the placebo thing. Especially in a first world where buzz words like ‘natural’ and such are so trendy, so marketed, yet often so meaningless. I think it’s funny how (generalising here) unhealthy the *seemingly* health conscious can be – purely because of what the new thing is in healthy diets/lifestlyes. I think that fads and trends in that way, are placebos. I think the placebo effect also works both ways; a friend of mine participated in a paid clinical trial (localised pain medication) and one of the guys in the trial got a bad rash and due to duty of care had to be removed from the trial and monitored – and he was on the placebo.

Clearly, placebos do not work *all* of the time, and this is because some things need treatment, but also I think it’s because of apprehension in some cases. Placebos are really interesting, not just as a control in medicine, but also into the concept of psychology in health and how large a role it plays. I mean, if you get a rash or an ulcer or hypertension or whatever else from stress, then why wouldn’t positive mindsets contribute to good health?

**Totally unrelated note: I have taken up knitting dishcloths/’sponges’. They are totally reusable, super absorbent and also textured enough to scrub. Ya’ll should give it a go – it’s a good skill and you can use synthetic, cotton or other vegan yarn.

By: Heather

Heather — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:29:00 +0000

“How much of Western medicine is actually placebo???”

All of it, technically. But to be approved, drugs need to outperform the placebo— so the effectiveness of Western medicine is from both improvement due to placebo + improvement due to drug action.

By: Sayward Rebhal

Sayward Rebhal — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:47:00 +0000

3. The hotel maid study. WOW. Maids were asked how often they exercise, and were given a number of tests to measure their health. The vast majority reported that they never/rarely exercise, and for the most part their bodies reflected this. Then, half of the group was given a demonstration that taught them how the work they do all day, every day, is actually exercise! Vacuuming burns this many calories, making a bed uses these muscles, etc. A month later the researchers returned and measured both groups. Of course, the ones who had been educated regarding exercise, had totally lost weight, although nothing else about their lifestyle had changed. Amazing. A few weeks back I told Damian about this study. Then, two nights ago he was getting undressed for bed, and I was like "Damn babe! You look GOOD!" He told me that every day on his bike commute, he has been practicing mindfulness, and thinking abou the ride as exercise instead of transportation. He's especially been holding the thought of how biking works his upper body. Swear to god, he is getting CUT! So what do you think of that?